Cans and Shoulds?
February 26, 2009 by wmmascot
Okay, so the mascot committee already needs your help.
We’re talking about guidelines for mascot submissions. I’ll back up – we want YOUR best ideas for a W&M mascot and soon we’ll begin accepting submissions.
There are some practical considerations for reviewing mascot ideas. So here is the first draft of a list of cans, can’ts, shoulds, and shouldn’ts. What do you think?
The proposed mascot can
• be represented in a costume that a person can walk around in
• be animal, vegetable, mineral, or ?
• be attractively presented in green, gold and silver
The proposed mascot cannot
• violate NCAA guidelines and rules
The proposed mascot should
• engender pride and affection for William & Mary
• be appropriate at both athletic and non-athletics events and activities
• have a connection to the unique history and traditions of the College
• be compatible with the official marks of William & Mary, supporting marketing and communication
The proposed mascot should not
• be the same as the mascot of another school in the Colonial Athletic Association
Let us know what you think of these….
- Susan T. Evans
80 Responses to “Cans and Shoulds?”
With the college being founded by the King and Queen of England maybe our mascot could be a Knight. Knights protect the King and Queen. The knight could use the school colors and the shield could have the crest on it.
Good luck with the search.
That Colonel Ebirt thing was the single dumbest mascot in the NCAA. It was an embarrassment to our school – people I brought to games actually laughed at us. And, I could only agree with them.
Whatever you do, do not bring that frog/alien thing back.
I know this idea will meet with lots of criticism from all the people who are overly politically correct, but…
Why don’t we go out and create an actual relationship with the eight tribes of Virginia (heck, 4 or 5 of them are located within an hour of campus) and embrace our Indian heritage/roots? Florida State does this with the Seminole tribe in Florida. Invite the Tribe’s leaders to offer input on how we can respectfully have a mascot that actually reflects our American Indian roots and promotes their heritage.
It can become a great marketing tool for both W&M and the Tribes if done correctly. Revenue from logo/promotional items can be shared (it will be higher revenue, and thus more to share, since we can actually have something interesting to promote), educational opportunities can be created to promote the Virginia Tribes (wouldn’t it be cool if game days included real participation from Virginia Indians – think we would generate more interest from students and locals??), and W&M can stop walking on eggshells with respect to our name/logos/mascots.
And, there will never be a better mascot than an Indian on horseback. I think we did this until the early 80′s. Now, we can do it the right way with a little effort.
Instead, I suspect and fear, we will end up with whatever green suit is on sale from the discount mascot store. Or whatever fits into some unrealistic budget that our purchasing department approves.
Anyway, good luck with the search. I just hope it does not turn out as pathetic as our last attempts at mascots and logos.
Despite all I just said, I agree with Mike – but to do it, we need to move completely away from the whole “Tribe” thing. I actually discussed this exact idea with Barry Adams about 10 years ago and we agreed it would be a good idea, but hard to get done. The “Golden Knights” would be a great name/image.
Here’s an idea:
How about a yellow-striped coward?
It would represent the College’s shameful reluctance to challenge the repulsive political correctness of an NCAA committee which allows certain Native American mascots, but disallows others, primarily based on how large the university is, and how willing the insitution is to resist. (Reference the Utah ‘Ute’ logo and mascot.)
I think the Phoneix would be a great mascot. “Never dying, always new and fresh for years on end.”
There was an initative to make the Phoneix W&M’s mascot back in 1999, but for some reason while it had an abundance of support it was never approved. Idea came from among other things, the Wren building having been burned and risen from the ashes many times. I think one of the seals had a phoneix on it too.
Cheers!
This is really exciting and it is so nice to have the discussion open to the William and Mary community.
My first thought as a graphic designer is that if we keep “tribe,” it will constantly conflict with the new mascot. Questions like “which one to use where?”/”how will they work together?” will arise constantly.
On the other hand, if we were to keep “tribe” as the main athletic identity, it will be perplexing to come up with an image that illustrates “tribe” without being offensive.
Would doing away with “tribe” be an option so it will be solely the William & Mary [enter new mascot]?
I personally think this is the way to go.
A Knight is from the wrong time period. Though distinctive.
A Beefeater might work – like the ones at the Tower of London. Give him a halbard to wave around – or even a raven.
The English coat of arms contains a unicorn and a lion. A unicorn might work. Can’t really figure out what the costume would look like but I’m sure something could be created. Lions are already taken by two other schools.
William and Mary were from the house of orange. But unfortunately that coat of arms is three lions.
I couldn’t agree more with Jon’s comments above. I think it would be great to keep the “Tribe” name and I think we should encourage an open forum as to how to embody this name while including feathers. It would be amazing to have a mascot similar to the Florida Seminoles- I think it would be a step in the right direction to encourage support of WM athletics and raise school spirit. It all starts with the mascot and the image our school portrays.
I also like the idea of a knight, but it does stray away from the Tribe name. I strongly urge the school to fight the NCAA on their absurdly harsh guidelines. We should collaborate with Virginia Indian tribes and embody their heritage in our school’s mascot.
No offense, David, but the “Fight’n Unicorns” just doesn’t quite have the right ring to it. That may be the only surest way to get more laughs than Col. Ebirt.
You are right that the Knight idea is not quite from the same time period as the founding of our school, but it still does reflect the English heritage – which I think is more important than an exact date.
Our colors were black and orange at one time way back when – although, I do like green and gold – I think we should keep that.
The Beefeater certainly provides lots of tailgate ideas…
i agree with E.S. — i was a student when the Phoenix campaign was a-churnin’, and i for one loved it. i remember there was some rather vehement opposition, but i never really knew why. i think it’s worth re-investigating; it’s unique, intelligent, and speaks to the history and resilience of the College.
Lillian raises a good point too; if we pick something new, it will likely conflict with Tribe. something to consider.
i think the unicorn idea has a lot of promise in a historical context, but i’d be afraid that the younger generations will find it too girly-whimsical.
Please bring back the feathers! Our emblem alone looks SO out of date and boring. Our mascot should portray something fierce, not embarassing! I urge the committee to collaborate with the Indian tribes of Virginia in order to combat the NCAA’s ridiculous guidelines. They certainly cannot keep WM’s feathers away if the tribes of Virginia support us!
Our mascot should be an Indian Chief with green and gold feathers. I think all the students agree that would be the best way to embody THE WM TRIBE!
Something Tribe-based is hopeless since we can’t have Indians, and the other image it conjures up is Lost Tribes of Israel or something — can’t go there. A proper “tribe” of course would be a whole crowd of people, not just one.
A phoenix would be exciting what with all the fire. But doesn’t have enough relation to anything that most people associate with our school.
Frankly, a Wren would be consistent with our teams’ general place on the food chain. Might as well embrace it and have fun. We have always had a healthy attitude towards our athletic mediocrity.
Or have King William and Queen Mary. With the big wigs, big skirts, swords, etc., that would be fun. If the Washington Nationals can have the 4 presidents, why can’t we do that?
Hard to choose. Maybe we’d be better off, with an overall richer heritage, if we tried each of these for a few years. Or pick one but occasionally have guest appearances by Knights with big Golden Horseshoes, a burning Wren, Indians from the eight Virginia tribes, etc.
Susan,
To answer your question, I think those guidelines are good. I would suggest that they be kept as guidelines, but the committee should reserve the right to choose a mascot that does meet a particular guideline just in case a really good one comes up.
First of all, what was wrong with Colonel Ebirt?
Second, I think an Indian, along the lines of Chief Osceola of the Florida State Seminoles, is a terrible idea. It’s already been done.
And third, I don’t think the nickname needs to be changed. Tribe is amorphous enough to apply to just about anything. I don’t really have a problem with the phoenix idea, but I still don’t see what was wrong with Colonel Ebirt.
I was thinking that the mascot could be a Wren… as in the bird? We all love our oldest building, so it’ll have more meaning than something not associated with the college.
Good luck!
Alice Donlan, ’05
The trouble with the phoenix is it has no relation to the tribe nickname. But it is also imperfect as a substitute because of the challenge making it plural.
Go Phoenixes?
Timothy you must be deranged; NO one likes Ebirt.
Hello,
While I do love the Tribe and hope we can get past the NCAA regulations, my second vote would be for the phoenix, then the wren.
Out of curiosity, when did Ebirt get the boot?
Hi Friends,
I have been a strong supporter of the idea of being the William and Mary Wrens ever since the problems with the feathers on our symbol. We could be supporting the unique history of Christopher Wren, we could be a proud bird and keep the feathers (or reinstate them). Also there are many species of wren, representing our great diversity.
Go Wrens!
p.s. yay Alice, I’m with you 100%
I believe we should harken back to our roots, in both the historic and athletic sense: a native american. Other schools have reached an understanding with the NCAA, why can’t we?
Part of the school’s original charter provided for a school for “indians,” subsequently held for a time in the Brafferton. With some outreach to the local tribes of Chickahominy, Pamunkey & Mattaponi, I believe they all would like to raise their name recognition and also be associated with our academic institution. Canvass the tribes to come up with an appropriate character and name; and install a protocol calling for only a tribe member to portray them at athletic events. At least, put a representative on the committee.
With this approach we would 1) address any NCAA or sensitivity issues; 2) gain community support; 3) maintain and strengthen our historical ties; and 4) gather immediate alumni & student recognition and support.
The William and Mary Wrens? AGHHHH. We’re all going to get beat up in the school yard wearing those shirts/hats.
A fluffy little bird (that is not all that attractive by the way – check for pics on wiki) is only slightly less disturbing than a unicorn. Should we change our colors to a nice array of pastels?
While I agree that our building and the guy who designed it are an integral part of our history that does not make it a mascot. I read books from Swem library, lived in Dupont Hall, swam in Lake Matoka – and none of them make any sense either as names. Just because it is on campus does not qualify it as good mascot/team name.
You say the proposed mascot cannot violate NCAA guidelines and rules but so far as I can see you do not list the applicable guidelines and rules (they are probably hidden on the NCAA link). Put the specific guidelines and rules prominently on the W and M Mascot website so we can know exactly what is acceptable and how to meet the NCAA guidelines and rules in our proposals.
Jim Metcalfe, Law ’75
I suggest the Virginia Opossum (Didelphis virginiana), unless it’s already taken.
Ron
(Spanish ’68)
First of all, thanks for the laffs, everyone. My initial thoughts are that if “Tribe” stays, then its definition must be expanded to be inclusive of everyone. So I thought “Tribe Fusion.” The mascot could be Sol, but instead of a kid in a dorky yellow flannel pajama-with-feet sunsuit running around looking like a refugee from a Jimmy Dean commercial, I think high-tech “SolSuits” could be designed from reflective gold material. While Sol could be represented by a single person, at larger events, an athletic dance team in SolSuits could present fusion and power through choreography, and use of props such as a giant Sol helium balloon made from the same reflective material, etc. Concessions could sell Sol balloons to the crowd, and a Sol blimp could fly around during the games.
How about a colonist? He could wear a tri-cornered hat with the W&M logo.
I agree with the idea of a double mascot of King William and Queen Mary. Every sportscaster has said at some point in their career that another team defeated both William and Mary so we might as well have fun with it. It is not sexist if both are represented and the opportunity for choreography between the 2 could be rich, as long as the king does not have a public affair with one of the ladies in waiting (cheerleaders, I suppose). The Native American thing is full of pitfalls and our most famous alum, Jefferson is certainly not without controversy. The Catholic vs Protestant parliamentary thing has been out off the news for some time, so we should be free of that controversy.
Perhaps the Mascot Committee could explore a licensing agreement with Marvel Comics for using the Incredible Hulk as a mascot. After all, he is green, which is one of our school colors. His alter ego is a brilliant scientist, which means he would be a mascot who meshes the physical strength of our athletes (and the strength of our enduring tradition) with our students gifted intellects and historic commitment to academic excellence. Plus, the more the College has been challenged, pushed, or tested, the stronger it becomes. And thus it is with always with the Incredible Hulk – his strength increases everytime he is attacked. Besides, you simply cannot beat “Hulk smash!” as a cheer!!!
I think the mascot should be the King, perhaps modeled after the BK King with a giant head and big grin. He must be athletic and do a number of daring escapades and stunts, maybe ride around in a scooter or Segway. This allows the younger student body to identify with him as maybe a pop-culture figure but at the same time represent the past history of the College.
I am a parent of a Tribe freshman, so I am a little bit removed from the passions that will stir this debate. However, I attended Stanford, which had just dropped its “Indians” mascot and personification in, “Little Ugh,” in the early 1970′s.
Stanford wallowed for lack of a proper mascot for a long, long time before settling on a color, Cardinal, that is frequently and erroneously treated as a noun by sports reporters.
The student body remained split throughout the lost years, much like the Italian government, and more recerntly the Isreali Knesset, with frustrating attempts ot forming coalition mascot government. Leading contenders were the Trees (Stanford’s symbol is the famed Palo Alto tree), favored by the Incomparables (Stanford’s irreverent marching band), the Gryphons, favored by the athletes, and the Robber Barons, favored by the student intelligentsia.
The Robber Baron was actually a very good fit, as the university was founded by Leland Stanford, the original robber baron of the Union Pacific transcontinental railroad. We would have needed to cough up big bucks to Milton Bradley to use their wonderful Monopoly man in top hat and tails. Of course, the administration was loath to adopt a mascot that disrespected the university’s founders. Kings and Queens could easily be abused in similar fashion at W&M.
As a student athlete, I was attracted to the Gryphons. These are mythical beasts with the bodies of lions and the heads, talons and wings of eagles, yet with elongated ears. If you read any background on gryphons, you will find that they have many outstanding and noble qualities. Their history dates to the ancient world, but they are also prominent in Western civilization.
As far as I can find, only Sarah Lawrence College has the gryphons as its mascot among US colleges. They are participants in the Hudson Valley conference, and only compete in a handful of intercollegiate sports. Gryphons don’t please everyone at Sarah Lawrence (http://gearrepublic.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/true-life-my-college-mascot-is-a-mythical-creature-with-the-body-of-a-lion-and-the-head-and-wings-of-an-eagle/), but you will never get unanimous support for any mascot choice.
University of Guelph, in Canada’s Ontario province, has the Gryphon as its mascot. They have a robust athletic history, and take great pride in their mascot, with well developed rules for its usage.
W&M’s green and gold could be easliy preserved, as gold is the natural color of the lion’s body.
I hope W&M can quickly reach a decision, and that its choice is a more animate mascot than inanimate or amorphous.
Scott O’Connor
Parent, Class of 2012
First off to go back to the older posts about the knights, the Golden Knights is already taken by another DI school; second off it has nothing to do with W&M. Third off, the battle is too long drawn out, stop fighting it the feathers/indians isn’t going to come back. W&M isn’t the only school who has had to change their mascot.
Instead of having the bird wren why not just embrace the building itself. A mascot doesn’t need to be a living thing. W&M already has the building on official items and would save the school money in coming up with a new design. Especially with the economy the way it is right now, I’m sure the school would appreciate not having to spend thousands with a whole new design.
I’m sorry if the first paragraph is harsh, but trying to figure out mascots dealing with the feathers is a waste of time. I’m sure this group wants to hear NEW ideas otherwise wouldn’t the school already have a mascot and wouldn’t have had to create this committee?
Our mascot should be someone dressed up as two feathers.
Being a very old alum, I was angry that we didn’t fight the NCAA over feathers and Indians; however, neither bears much historic relevance to the past 250 years. The King and Queen would be good mascots (cartwheels in a crown and ermine not withstanding), but what would the name be? The Queens???
Forget the Wrens – Wofford College in South Carolina is the Terriers and they have suffered ridicule for ages – and aren’t Wrens military females from WWII Britain?
I’d like something that relates to what we are and what we have been – Academics and Scholars – a mortar board (with feathers?), a mascot in green, gold, and silver academic regalia? I need help here.
I would dislike our using a name borrowed from some recognizable organizations like the Royals, the Colonials or the Patriots, for example. Surely we can be original.
As I understand it, we will still be the “William and Mary Tribe”
We are trying to find a mascot for that, not change to “William and Mary ________” (something else)
… please get a new logo. It’s unfortunate that we are left with something that no one wants to wear, and I guarantee it is costing the College money.
The Fighting Wrens is the best choice. Despite the comments of this mascot’s detractors, it would be easy to craft a design of a fierce, aggressive wren for sports purposes. There are plenty of successful college sports teams that use birds as symbols. And, contrary to some of the comments, respect for a team nickname (or colors) comes from the success of the team. Otherwise, who would respect UNC Tar Heels? Certainly, the fighting wren would strike fear as a symbol more than a pair of feathers.
I never liked our nickname or our symbol — not for “politically-correct” reasons, though. When I was at the College, our symbol was the cartoon face of a laughing Indian. No dignity, no ferocity. While the feathers were aesthetically more pleasing, they don’t convey a sports-type image. If we use the Fighting Wrens, the bird image could be used for sports, while the image of the Wren Building could be used for all other aspects of the College — academic departments, arts publications, etc.
William III was also known informally as “King Billy,” often pictured riding his favorite white horse, Sorrel. I think he could be a rather regal mascot. No cartoon head, please, His Majesty doesn’t need it.
William and Mary Athletics — We’re Gonna Reign on Your Parade…
Cops and Robbers, cowboys and Indians, feathers and tar and kings and queens aside: I’ve always felt that animal mascots make the most fun for audiences. Trees are kind of lame, documents a bit strange. An animal is a fond reminder of the primal nature of sport and a chivalric reminder of the virtues of academia.
Granted, not all animals are chivalric, but fortunately, we here at the college have two very familiar animals that are:
The Lion and the Unicorn.
Making them a duo mascot would be something akin to National’s Rushmore mascots and would make for an easy naming: William the Lion and Mary the Unicorn (or Will and Mare, Bill and Mare, etc), which gives us an easy link to our roots while also giving us interesting and dun mascots.
The duality of the mascots allows for interaction between two characters that pokes fun at and embraces our heritage.
So my thought is for William the Lion and Mary the Unicorn.
I hope this helps: Don’t forget to support the arts on campus!
Susan, to respond to your request on this thread: I think the guidelines you have listed are sufficiently broad to capture a wide variety of ideas. We’ll need a web link (or more info) regarding the NCAA guidelines. I would also go further with the “should not” category and suggest that the mascot should not be the same as another U.S. college or university. Let’s decide to be unique from the start!
I also love the Wren’s, and would welcome our beautiful feather logo back so we look a little less like the waste management trucks… Great idea Ryann and Alice!
Can the wren cross be our mascot?
How about the eagles? Majestic bird found along the shores of the James River, that was revered by both Native Americans and our Founding Fathers….
I was there when we were the Indians and had to get rid of that, and became the Tribe. The NCAA approved the logo with the feathers then, so why didn’t we refuse to de-flock? Oh well.
If all we are looking for is a mascot, I would call s/he:
Cypher
Not sure what the thing would look like – Maybe have a hat like the mace on its head?
Knights, ugh. “Bill & Mare,” ugh. Wrens, ugh. Phoenix, ugh. Jim, what the heck is a “Sol” – I’m kind of intrigued by that idea… But my ultimate preference is to find common ground with the local tribes and KEEP the feathers and the Indian-themed mascot!! Screw the NCAA!!
Lynn ’74
Or maybe Ampersand.
A mean looking wren (bird) as a mascot could be cool. We’ve already got the feathers. Of course the name ‘Tribe’ must stay.
And I am 100% against the Pheonix idea. It’s just dumb.
We should go back to the roots that predate the charter when it was Henrico School for the Indians. We should be the Henricos.
Since nobody knows what a Henrico is, we can make up anything we want. I can envision a big green and gold blobby looking thing, like an amoeba. It could then be a drink, a food, even an official sponge!
I love the tri-cornered hat thing, only in green and gold with two feathers!
Haha–the W&M Sponges! That’s hilarious. I like the gryphon/phoenix idea…even the lion & unicorn have a sense of history and regality about it. Mean-looking wrens? …Have you ever seen a wren? They’re adorable.
http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/Diversity/birdbanding/images/other%20birds/winter_wren.jpg
I just had a mental image of cheering at football games…what would we yell? Tweet? Although I guess I have no idea what I would yell if we were gryphons.
Jon’s comments at the very top of the page are right on the money. The historical roots of, not just the school, but the area, beg the connection to the Native American community. No one wants to offend, but a tasteful tip of the hat to the original American’s could hardly be considered an offense. It’s time that NCAA grow up and stop taking offense at the mere mention of anything even remotely connected to Native Americans…if something is offensive and belittling that’s one thing, but there is clearly a way to do this tastefully…and Jon outlines the perfect approach to doing this right, beginning with building those critical and cooperative relationships with the Virginia tribes.
Personally, I love the idea of a Phoenix. If we had it designed correctly, it could look fierce enough to embody the intense emotion desirable at sporting events. Also, the giant seal of new campus located next to the Crim Dell has a phoenix emblazoned on it, representative of the college rising from the ashes of fires/closings/wars/hurricanes/you name it and yet continuing to fly on and progress.
To keep “Tribe” a part of it…just name the Phoenix “Tribe.”
Tribe the Phoenix.
We could still shout “Go Tribe,” it would have two meanings now, and no changing of everything already covered with “Tribe” would be necessary.
Although there are some fantastic ideas hidden in here, there’s a great deal of chaff as well, here are my impressions as a junior who desperately wants her school to rise above insipid mediocrity or criticism by powerful outside groups:
1. While Wrens is precocious, it’s not particularly motivating. Not to mention the muddled history of it’s name–we might not want to hinge our new mascot to a dying misconception–the so-called Wren building was very likely not built by Christopher Wren, although it is similar to his designs, we’ve already committed it to our campus by mimicking his famous sunken gardens out the back-steps of the Wren.
2. ‘Bill and Mare’ or the Lion and Unicorn idea is adorable! But do we really need a further reinforcement of the in-fighting that goes on here? (the mascots will of necessity be the butt of many jokes by comparison to the nursery rhyme about England and Scotlands’ travails. Not something we need to perpetuate!)
3. The Ampersand is fittingly obtuse and self-deprecating. I very much like this suggestion, but I think it might not go over well as something to rally behind.
4. The Phoenix is a great suggestion. I don’t think we’ll be able to secure it for our school.
A new suggestion might be to have Matoaka, aka Pocahontas, as our mascot. If anyone has right to claim her it’s us, and they might be more easy on us for championing her as a proud native woman rather than the doubtless scared fourteen-year old she really was.
Thank you Burt.
Although I do like the knight theme – I prefer staying with our Tribe name/image ONLY if we can do it the right way. The right way means being Indians again.
The fact is we are not bids, amoebas, phoenixeseses (?), buildings, crosses, etc. And, we are definitely not sponge-worthy. WE ARE INDIANS. Always were, always will be — despite the weakness of our past administrations and the small-mindedness of a few so-called politically correct individuals.
All we need is an administration willing to have a backbone and a couple of talented alums from Marshall-Wythe who would be willing to take on the NCAA. I’m not an attorney, but I suspect that we could win a legal battle (it may be a long one, hence the need for a backbone) since there is precedence at Florida State, Utah and, I think, a couple other schools.
The key, to me, is the support and partnership with our Virginia Tribes, just like Florida State and Utah have. I wonder if we have ever reached out to them in any intelligent way. For some reason, I have actually given this a lot of thought over the last several years and I really don’t think it would be that difficult to create the proper relationship. I just don’t think anyone has ever tried.
But, in any event (sorry Timothy ’07) we can NOT bring back that green alien-frog.
When you look up the word Tribe in Roget’s Thesaurus, it says see Family. Look up Family and it says a group of people living together as a unit–meaning to me the William and Mary collegiate Community!!~.
How about a Totem for a mascot? A totem that salutes the Indian, the Colonist, the Mixing pot that is the student body of William and Mary. Black, white, red, yellow purple, etc. a totem for each. This would be unique and surely non-controversial. A Totem to Diversity that is William and Mary both historically and today.
Green, gold, and silver are perfect colors for a phoenix! The precious metals fit well with the rarity associated with mythological creatures, while the green would make our mascot unique. Think about it, green flames and plumage edged in flashing gold and silver! A phoenix would allow us to continue the feather theme that W&M was forced to give up (a sort of “rise from the ashes” thing, just like the Wren building), and no rivals will ever be able to seriously mock an immortal and invincible creature.
This is quite a conundrum. “Tribe” is a word which has been used over the course of history to describe people outside of what we deem to be civilized society. However, our college has appealed to the part of the word’s connotation which means “togetherness” or a tightly bound group. For this reason the name has always appealed to me personally as a symbol of the College. The problem here is that mascots are supposed to have some kind of intimidating quality. Teams do not generally have mascots that show weakness. A tribe of Indians certainly seems more intimidating that a tribe of meerkats. The question is what can we associate with the name Tribe that shows our togetherness as students and alumni using a mascot other than something Indian-related? In popular discourse, the word tribe has never been used to describe a group of colonists, knights, or any group of Caucasian people. The NCAA has set a limitation that says we cannot focus our logo on a group of people outside of those who are Caucasian (animals are fine because they cannot talk, let alone go on strike). Finding a universal symbol is difficult, frankly because mascots are usually very specific. It seems like if we keep “tribe” it will be hard to come up with something specific outside of something Indian related. Sure, Harvard is called the Crimson but has John Harvard as the mascot. However, having a color as your nickname presents much greater maneuverability than a word like “tribe”. If you have one mascot on the field, you obviously don’t have a tribe of people. So that one person has to clearly represent a tribe. The icon that will be printed on a hat should insinuate something that isn’t completely distant from the word “tribe”. I really think that the NCAA needs to have legal action brought against it, but I also realize this is not likely to happen. (the fact that a white person can dress up like an Indian and call himself a Florida State Seminole but we can’t have two feathers is beyond me). Since the NCAA has made it impossible to use any symbols that clearly show a member of a tribe and we are not going to take legal action, I say choose something that is marketable and shows prestige. It seems like no matter what, we will have to come up with a round-a-bout explanation for why our new mascot is associated with a tribe of people (sorry but animals just don’t seem to cut it).
1. The North American Wild Turkey! My suggestion is to choose the “Wild Turkey” as mascot for W&W and give it an attitude! Enthusiasm!
One of our nation’s founders, Benjamin Franklin, once suggested this bird might be a worthy “envoy” in a letter to his daughter:
“For the Truth the Turkey is… a much more respectable Bird, and withal a true original Native of America . . . He is…a Bird of Courage, and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British Guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard with a red Coat on.”
2. This choice would:
a) Connect with the heritage of both the Native American and the Colonist in North America, equally
b) Connect with the natural science focus the university has developed (Institute for Integrative Bird Behavior Studies and other environmental interests
c) Provide a fun mascot rooted in history-note Franklin’s comment “and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard…. I can visualize the W&M turkey chasing after the opposition mascot.
d) Resurrect the reputation of a fine bird, indeed
e) Also, remember, the wild turkey is quite different from the domesticated turkey. The wild turkey can fly extremely well.
I’m sure there are many more connections and suggestions, both pro and con, on my suggestion, so let the conversation continue. My vote is for Meleagris Gallopavo!
I like the Wrens! My freshman year I dressed as the Wren Building, complete with a weather vane hat. I think dressing up like a bird would be a lot easier but equally excellent! I agree that there are a lot of teams with bird mascots that look a lot tougher than they do in real life. My vote definitely goes to the Wrens!
I thought the wren idea was promising as well, but I see a few snags:
1. Wrens have feathers. Weren’t feathers the reason we got into this mess in the first place?
2. Wrens don’t congregate in “tribes.” We find a gaggle of geese, a pack of dogs, an exultation of larks, and a *herd* of wrens. Thanks to Dame Juliana Barnes for cataloging animal collective nouns.
Perhaps this is the time to ditch “Tribe” altogether, now that the NCAA has kicked the guts out of it. Wrens aren’t all that fierce, but neither are our sports teams, so it kinda works on several levels.
I agree we need to move away from the “Tribe” affiliation as it continues to smack of what the NCAA objected to in the first place.
Perhaps something that links W&M to the traditions of Thomas Jefferson and founders of the College.
I like the 3 cornered hat suggestion…how can that be linked to Jefferson and other luminaries of the period/College? The “Jeffersons” or does that sound a bit like a sitcom…? The “Patriots”…, the “Colonists”….as previously suggested….A “mascot” in traditional dress of the period….again the 3 corner hat theme…in Green and Gold…????
I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time! Thanks to everyone who supported keeping the Tribe as our logo, I couldn’t agree more. Why should we let the NCAA dictate to us what our logo and mascot are when they let other colleges use indian themes just because they are big college football powerhouses? They are such hypocrites!
Since we already gave in to the NCAA I think we should just change the whole logo, mascot and colors. I love the idea of the Redcoats. Green and gold are ugly colors, just look at George Mason and their horrible mascot. Really we need to start over. The logo W&M clothes are ugly and I would hate to even be caught dead in most of it. Really, let’s go for red and white as the colors, and a little colonial soldier in a tri-cornered hat for the logo. Red is a fierce color and we need to give out athletes some sort of hope of winning.
Please allow me to suggest that the mascot must reflect W&M’s history and traditions, and not be a green blob signifying nothing.
Some initial personal suggestions are — How about a Rector mascot (after our founder James Blair and traditional head of the College to this day)? Or a King & Queen mascot (after King William and Queen Mary)? Or a Colonial mascot of some sort (obvious connection with America’s colonial history and Colonial Williamsburg)? All of these are obviously linked to the history of our beloved College.
Personally, we could recognize our important history as the first English-speaking Indian school in America. This school was founded in an era when Europeans largely were killing indians and not educating them. It certainly is a proud part of our history. Of course, I suppose that is sadly out of the question in today’s political environment. Given the NCAA’s nonsense ruling, and the College’s acquiescence in that nonsense ruling, we are left with the College being a “Tribe” without any logical mascot to reflect such a description. Such an illogical end results when history and traditions are denied and tossed aside.
Andrew ’87
Lions. Get it? Tribe PRIDE. yes. like a pride of lions.
The wrens are good too though. just a thought.
My great grandmother was Cherokee and somehow I managed to get through 4 years at the college without being offended. Since PC is the issue of the day how about the WM doofesses – if you want to know what one looks like for a logo – look in the mirror. aaaarrroughhhhhhhhh!
I like Genny’s idea (not sure if anyone else mentioned it) about the Lions. We could use a lion and be known as the Monarchs. Is that already being used in the CAA? That way we can put a crown on the lion and refer to our royalty AND still be a tribe. Just a thought. Sorry if I repeated anyone’s ideas…many are good ones here! I agree with Andrew’s comments above as well. Keep ‘em coming!
Please bring back Colonel Ebirt! I think he represents the school well with his colors and colonial garb. Also, it’s rather difficult to find a mascot that symbolizes the vague notion of “The Tribe” well without being politically incorrect. I think Ebirt is the best bet.
A phoenix is the best choice for the new mascot of the College of William and Mary because of the mythical bird’s history, symbolism, and past affiliation with the College.
The phoenix is a global symbol of rebirth and renewal, and as such would be an ideal symbol for the College. It is found in ancient mythology from India, Egypt, Greece, Rome, China, and Russia, and is also referenced in the Bible; its derivation from many cultures makes it a fitting representation of William and Mary’s commitment to diversity. The phoenix, according to myth, has a one thousand year life-cycle, at the end of which it ignites and burns itself to ashes. From these ashes, a new baby phoenix emerges, ready to live for another thousand years. The phoenix was able to regenerate itself when wounded, and its tears had healing power for others. Like the phoenix, the College has survived centuries already despite the tests it has faced and has a long, glowing future ahead of it. The wisdom offered here is immortal, and has the potential to aid, to heal, people around the world. The phoenix is the perfect icon of the College of William and Mary.
The phoenix has been associated with the College for centuries, and would therefore be an excellent mascot. When the Wren Building burned for the first time in 1705, College founder James Blair promised that the College would be like a phoenix and rise from the ashes to live again. His portrait, which hangs in the Wren Building today, features a phoenix. As President Reveley mentioned in his 2009 Charter Day address, the phoenix was on the seal George Wythe, a famed law professor, designed for the College and which was used from 1783 to 1929. There has a phoenix on the reverse side of the Great Seal of the Commonwealth of Virginia since 1776; the College was the first institution of higher learning in Virginia and the two entities are intimately tied together. The phoenix is a symbol of the Queen’s Guard, the honor guard established to commemorate the honors given to the College by Queen Mary II, Queen Anne, and Queen Elizabeth II. To mark the College’s 275th birthday, a graven image of a phoenix was placed in between Old Campus and New Campus with the following quote: “From the old to the new, may this entrance, like the phoenix, symbolize a look to the future made promising by a challenging heritage.”
In its 316 year history, the College of William and Mary has never failed to triumph over the challenges it faced, whether they be wars, fires, political turmoil, or economic recession. Its ancient, multicultural heritage and commitment to rebirth make the phoenix the perfect symbol of the College.
For a phoenix mascot, I propose the names “Pharos,” which means “beacon” and would suit the College’s mission to enlighten the world, or “Phenom,” which describes the phenominal qualities of the College.
Thanks for that wonderful description of the Phoenix throughout College history. I love a lesson like that! I just fear that a phoenix is not recognizable as linked to the College. It certainly has nothing to do with the “Tribe.” Maybe I could come around on the old rebirthing bird. It does have a definitive link to you history — good — and it has feathers to boot!
“Monarchs” was suggested, but ODU has taken that already! ODU even has a great Lion mascot with a crown as suggested above. See this link http://www.odu.edu/ao/licensing/docs/logoguidelines.pdf (PDF above 2 mgb to download!). Great idea, just taken already. Since we are talking history, the reason that ODU has something that might work for W&M is that ODU was originally founded as part of W&M — it was one of the “Colleges of William and Mary” at one time.
Andrew ’87
Here’s an idea that is complicated but let me share it anyway.
I envision a mascot that is literally a Tribe of characters from our history as a College. Someone above suggested a Totem with different symbols for the same reason — something to reflect characters and symbols of our historic past.
This “Tribe” mascot could include an Anglican Rector a la James Blair, a Native American Virginian – I envision a Pocahontas-like character (to honor our Indian school), a Colonial student a la Jefferson, a Phoenix (why not!), a Flapper (recognizing W&M’s “first in Virginia public universities to go co-ed” status in the early 20th c), and one more. In this way, our mascot could literal be called “The Tribe.” And it would literally be one. I can see this Tribe performing at athletic events, leading cheers and and representing the best of the College’s history. I can see there being a Tribe of 5 characters, and a great logo featuring the word “TRIBE” with each character paired with one of the letters in the word, Tribe.
Like I said, very complicated, but unique to be sure, some that our College certainly is!
Love this blog, by the way, and really appreciate the fact that one of the criteria suggested is a definitive link to our unique history. That is the most important part of a mascot. Our logo needs some help — a tie to our history using a mascot would help.
Andrew ’87
Andrew ’87′s idea is really creative, definitely like the totem made of actual historical figures representing the different elements of our history.
It’s a shame the lions are already taken, that would have been pretty spirited.
I whole-heartedly support trying to bring back the original feathers & building better relations with the local Native American tribes, which should be done anyway, but as for its success at bringing back our mascot… I’m doubtful.
I think the Wrens could be made to look somewhat fierce if positioned right… head down, feet angled out, feathers fluffed up, and with a scowl that says it’s fully ready to charge. I can hear Samuel L. Jackson’s voice coming out of it now.
Other than that – the Phoenix! I can’t believe anyone would say that it has nothing to do with our school! Someone else mentioned the giant brick mosaic of it that’s near the Crim Dell, that’s been there for years – or at least long enough for it to be worth considering as a mascot. We have pictures in PBK on New Campus dating back to the early 1900s if not the late 1800s; I think the Phoenix has earned it. It’s the second-oldest thing besides the original Chief that I can think of (no, let’s not do William and Mary… it’s a cute idea, but thinking of them starting the game with a minuet? awkward). Besides that, it’s message of renewal is so appropriate (besides the burning and rebuilding of the Wren Building). Seriously – *right now* we are trying to rebuild our whole logo and mascot after it’s been burned by the NCAA, and somehow eventually W&M will rise again from the ashes to victory in *something*. Maybe not actually winning games, but we’ll (hopefully) come up with a good mascot. So there’s my two cents – not only is the Phoenix historically symbolic and appropriate, but it completely applies to what the College has gone through recently; the controversies of the Nichol presidency, controversy and process of instating President Reveley, this mascot search – all of these are rebirth and renewal for the College, for good or bad. Not to mention how every time our football team gets burned, it still rises up to play every season…
People have expressed concerns to me about the colors of the Phoenix, since fire usually is fiercely red, but I think if we keep the Phoenix itself mostly gold and silver, and the flames green and silver with only splashes of gold, maybe it’d work out?
We’d get our feathers back – can’t argue with feathers for a green & gold bird, not offending the phoenix any – and there’s no question of ferocity.
Holly, 2011
As a former Ebirt, I would love to see him back. He was beloved by drunken frat boys and alumni’s small children alike, even if the majority of the student body mocked him. (Trust me, even though Ebirt never spoke, he certainly listened.)
But since Ebirt certainly won’t return, of all the ideas presented above, I have to vote for the lion and unicorn, named for William and Mary in some way.
With regard to the Wrens, I agree completely with the comments of EG in #51 above — the direct connection of the College to Christopher Wren is tenuous at best, not sure we want to advertise that fact. I love the Wren Building, I loved taking classes in it, but at the same time, knew that the connection to the famed architect was a bit uncertain. Also, I must admit to laughing when I hear of the Univ. of Delaware Fighting Blue Hens, so we must be careful with bird names.
Otherwise, the lion and the unicorn or something based on the monarchs William and Mary could work.
I’m largely unconvinced about the phoenix; while there are parallels between the phoenix and the College’s history, I don’t get the sense that the phoenix is something uniquely “William and Mary”-connected. A phoenix is also associated with fire (think red), and that doesn’t quite mesh with our beloved Green and Gold in terms of colors. Comments of Becky in #70 are illuminating, but again, I just see parallels, not a connection that is uniquely suited to W&M.
Tradition can’t be invented, only handed down through those who value it and keep it alive.
Bring back the feathers! I for one will always be a member of the Tribe!!
We need to figure out how to get the feathers back. Tradition is an important part of our school and its legacy. If other schools can maintain native american mascots, why can’t we? Now that our wishy washy ex president got the boot, maybe we can fight to reclaim what is rightfully ours.
Here’s an idea: The William & Mary Revolution
http://tinyurl.com/wmrev
I am very anti-mascot. I think it will be shameful for our school. We are an amazing school and we’ve done wonderfully thus far without a mascot. I think to do anything other than TRIBE or something TRIBE related would poorly reflect on the school and our history. We are not anything but the TRIBE and I will be very disappointed if we chose a mascot that does not represent us as TRIBE. I agree if we are to get a mascot, we should establish a good working relationship with the Native Americans in VA so we can embrace part of our history and they can support us in our mission to do so. It’s only right. We need our feathers and need to stop trying to change for anyone but ourselves. I think everyone here at the school identifies with our feathers and our TRIBE name. Please don’t throw that away with something as foolish as picking some silly mascot….that’s just not WM. We are not a bubbly W&M as our pathetic new logo represents us as– we are WM with feathers, we are very proud of our histosry and we always will be. I will personally reject any new mascot as I’ve rejected our middle-school looking logo that makes me feel like the decision makers cannot represent our school and heritage properly. Plenty of Native Americans are represented at college and professional levels-Seminoles at FSU are accepted, Indiana still goes by the Indians, the Redskins are still the Redskins …I don’t think being the TRIBE or our feathers are offensive, I think it is a compliment that we and the NCAA should give to our roots. Maybe we could see about getting Alumni to pull together and sue the NCAA on behalf of our school since we won’t do it ourselves for whatever reason. It IS that important.
I’m sorry, but the WM TRIBE Knights or Wrens or anything else would just be plain stupid (not to knock the people who suggested them, it just does not make sense and goes against TRIBE theory).
Thank you for your time and consideration. Please, please take my suggestions to both your hearts and minds. This is an issue that runs deep through the college community and I truly believe that the majority of us (even just townies with WM TRIBE Pride!) would be outraged if we adopted a mascot. It’s time to bring the college closer together, not further apart. Thanks again!
Dean Broaddus, perhaps we should do something truly revolutionary and stand up to the NCAA and fight for our real, time honored, name and logo.
Maybe the Deans, Administrators and Leaders of this College could be something of “revolutionaries” themselves and actually stand up and fight for what is rightfully ours – the names and traditions we have used throughout our history.
Maybe the true “revolution” would be when someone in our Administration shows that they have a backbone instead of immediately folding to the whims of rampant and misguided political correctness.
The true meaning of being a revolutionary is standing up for what you believe in. So, let’s start the right kind of revolution around here and fight for our feathers!
What about Chief Powhatan? Anybody that has lived in Virginia or knows early colonial history knows that he was one of the most powerful men in the area during the early 1600′s and he was the leader of the Powhatan TRIBE which was located right in the tidewater area which is where Williamsburg is! We could keep the feathers and our mascot would go with our nickname so there would be no confusion. Instead of the deerskin cloak he had that is displayed at Jamestown we could drape him in something green and gold.
We want our feathers back!!
I always hated Ebirt. I think the only thing I could hate more than Ebirt would be a Phoenix.
I think the W&M mascot situation is similar to the Stanford Cardinal, which another person mentioned. We can easily keep the Tribe and have some sort of random mascot like the Stanford Tree or the Dartmouth Keggy…
I guess Ebirt was random as well, but more so he was awful.
I vote for the Beefeater. I do love a nice G&T.
The Tribe is good and strong and shows we will stop being cowards.
Comment 51 represents everything wrong about this pointless debate, as well as my experience at W&M. This is a mascot discussion, not an excuse to show off one’s vocabulary. Who used the word insipid in a mascot discussion? Jeez…
The primary point of a mascot is to reveal a school’s character in sporting events. Yes, there are shirts and hats to sell, but it is tangentially related to sports. It’s not about sexixm, racism or elitism. If you were like the person who wrote Comment 51, somebody who probably spent Fall Saturdays at Swem, researching Christopher Wren’s legacy, instead of at the football game, screaming and yelling and acting like a happy jackass for a few hours, kindly leave this discussion. And take your thesaurus with you. Your argument is shallow and pedantic.
King William and Queen Mary!
I concur heartily with John (#13), Jim (#27), Nancy (#33) and others in favor of dual King William (or Billy) and Queen Mary mascots.
With big foam heads and crowns. Imagine these two being able to pump up the crowds.
These two strike the right balance of irreverence and respect of our history. They would also be unique to the College!
I posted my proposal below on the facebook page, feel free to chime in over there!
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Having King William and Queen Mary portrayed by students would honor W&M’s history, be versatile and appropriate, and be the easiest choice around which the College community can rally, promoting that elusive “Tribe Pride.”
Drawing on the most conspicuous trait of the College – that it is named after two 17th C. European monarchs – these two mascots would also be absolutely unique among CAA teams that seem to have taken many of the mascots and monikers appropriate for W&M and among the entire NCAA. King William and Queen Mary mascots simultaneously would embrace, honor, and have some fun with the College’s long history. We take pride in our royal lineage (see Charter Day, among other traditions). While most revolutionary colleges ditched their royal names (Rutgers was once Queen’s, Columbia once King’s), W&M held firm. However, for a college that is equally proud of Jefferson the radical, it is an odd marriage.
That is why I propose that King William and Queen Mary portrayed as fun, big foam-headed mascots complete with royal garb (in the mold of the Washington Nationals Presidents or Wake Forest Demon Deacon) who would acknowledge our history while having some fun with it.
King William and Queen Mary would also be appropriate and coherent for purposes of branding. Society has certain expectations of college mascots. They should be big, fun, and while they don’t have to match up perfectly (eg Georgetown Hoyas and Jack the Bulldog) they should be easily identifiable with a college. Unlike some of the other more esoteric suggestions (e.g. the Phoenix or the Tribe Pride of Lions) King William and Queen Mary would not require a long explanation and would be instantly identifiable when our teams travel to rival colleges or when they make an appearance at campus events.
Finally, I believe the College community could truly rally around these two mascots. Instead of interjecting another variable into our ongoing debate about logos, monikers, and mascots, I think this solution achieves uniqueness without reinventing the wheel. Let’s not over-think this. We are William and Mary- no question about that. Let’s embrace it and have some fun.